Creating an Online Programme with David Miles

Have you ever dreamt about earning passive income, (i.e. earning money that isn't directly connected to selling your time)?

Have you ever thought about taking what you deliver for your clients and turning it into an online programme, a course, or a membership site?

A number of my clients have so I thought it would be a great topic for a podcast.

In this episode of The Agency Accelerator Podcast, I am joined by David Miles, CEO of The PPC Machine.

The PPC Machine is an agency that helps mortgage brokers generate high-quality leads from their website using PPC and website optimisation. 

David shares how he's taken his PPC services and developed an online membership programme. We explore why he choose a membership programme over other online models, we look at some of the tech he has in place to run his membership, and the challenges and pitfalls he experienced as he developed his programme.

Here’s a glance at this episode…

[2:37] 

What was the catalyst to begin exploring and creating an online programme?

[4:43] 

How to explore different online models- from membership programme to one off courses. 

[5:37] 

The reasons for choosing membership model over a standard course 

[8:05] 

Understanding the structure of an overall online programme

[13:04] 

How to encourage members to take action for online learning success

[14:04] 

What is the current status of David Miles’ PPC online programme?

[14:50] 

The biggest challenge in creating an online programme

[17:40] 

The component parts and tech tools that best work for The PPC Machine

[21:06] 

Tips in selling membership programme

[23:38] 

What advice to give to the listeners who plan to take their business online?

[27:21] 

Tips in pre-selling an online programme

[29:20] 

What are the things that David Miles would have done differently if he were to start over again?

[30:41] 

How to determine the pricing for an online programme

[34:16] 

What would David Miles’ advice be to his younger self?

Quotations

"Moving your 1-2-1 services to an online programme makes your business more scalable. You can reach more people." - David Miles

“I think a really good bit of advice that you don't need to have everything ready at launch. In fact, if you're launching a programme yourself, you need to create a minimum viable offer..“ - Rob DaCosta

“..no one is going to judge how good your programme is by the quantity of content. You don't need content about everything. You just need to have good quality content.” - Rob DaCosta

“Launch with a minimum viable product so that don't don't feel you've got to spend six months or a year creating something huge before you launch, because the big risk if you do that you might be creating something that nobody wants and then you've wasted a year of your life, so decide what your minimum viable product is.” - David Miles

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 Full Episode Transcription

If you've ever dreamt about earning passive income by money that isn't directly connected to selling your time, then this episode's gonna be one that you don't want to miss. Now, if you've ever thought about taking what you deliver for your clients and turning it into an online programme, or course, or a membership site, then that's what we're talking about today. I'm excited to have David Miles from The PPC Machine, who is actually our second repeat guest, and we're talking all about how he's taken his PPC services and turned them into an online membership programme. We'll talk about why he decided to do this, why he picked a membership programme over a different model, and some of the tech and things that he's had to get in place in order to make sure that he can run the programme and talk about how he launched on how successful he's been in some of the pitfalls on some of the things that he would do differently if he were starting again. So, as I say, if you've ever thought about taking what you teach and turning it into an online programme, then this episode is one that you won't want to miss.So, let's get on with the show. 

Accelerate your agency's profitable growth with tools, tips, and value added interviews with your host agency owner and coach, Rob DaCosta. So, welcome to today's episode of The Agency Accelerator Podcast. I'm really excited to have back with me; in fact, David Miles from the PPC. David is a long standing client of mine, and he runs, as I said, the PPC Machine, an agency that helps mortgage brokers generate high quality leads from their website using PPC and website optimisation.

Now David was actually one of my first guests on the podcast in episode 6, where we talked about niching, and David shared the benefits he's seen since niching into the mortgage broker sector. So welcome, David. Welcome back David. Is there anything else you wanted to add to my introduction? No, I think you already know me quite well up to something, something a lot quite nicely. So, good to be back. Excellent. Well, it's well, it's good to have you back. Now, you've been running your agency for a number of years in its current form and today we're talking about taking kind of like the bricks and mortar work that we do and moving it into some kind of online programme. So I was really interested to hear from you what the catalyst was for you to begin exploring creating some kind of online programme, online community for your audience. Yeah, I know this is one of those things I'd I'd talked about I thought about doing for years and lots of people said to me over the years, or you should take your training and, you know, move it online. It's more scalable. You can reach more people and all that kind of thing. And, I suppose, as with a lot of people, the catalyst for doing something that you've talked about for a long while was when the pandemic hit last year. Because obviously that two things firstly, in that initial for six weeks, when the business world just kind of stopped, you know, regardless of what kind of business you're in, everyone seemed to stop and now want to commit to anything in the world ground to a hole that always he gave people like me a lot more time to think about.

Okay, well, now I've got the time to do it. X once said that I've talked about for years. Um, because the other thing was, I physically couldn't deliver one-to-one  training to people anymore, which, you know, that wasn't solely what business was about. It was a significant part of it. So those things together really gave me the opportunity and the kick up the bum, to actually get on and start thinking like, how can I take what I've been doing in training rooms and one-to-one with people over the years and turn that into an online offering.

Yeah, I guess it's a soft panacea that many people see with an online programme in that they are limited by their time when they're doing what you and I do, which is typically one-to-one work with clients, whether that be training or coaching. Actually doing the work for them is a consultant like you do when you're running a PPC campaign for a client. And if we take it online than this promise of kind of making money in your sleep and, you know, being much more scalable And I guess you and I both know that promise a bit of a misnomer really. So I think the first thing I would say to people to our listeners is that if you've ever dreamt about creating online programme that absolutely go for air but realise that you know, it's a different kind of effort and work that you need to put in to get the revenue as opposed to the one-to-one work. So now you settled on a membership model in the end. So I'm interested to know why that was on what other models you explored. Because I guess if someone is thinking about taking their consultative what they do and creating online programme, then they will be thinking about these different models. So, how did you explore and conclude that a membership model was the right thing for you? Yes. Obviously there's two ways you can. You can sell online training on my courses. Yet that's the selling is a one of thing. Here's my course, give me £1000, have my course all this the membership model, which is what I went for. But as you know, Rob, you initially I went down, the more traditional sell it as a stand alone course. And a few reasons for our transition to the membership model ready. Firstly, the biggest reason I think is it. But a membership model allows me to offer more support and ongoing help to the people who buy by the court or by what is now programme that includes for courses is one of its elements. And the reason why I think that's so important is one thing I learned very early on when I was doing face-to-face training and you know if mining public training courses, where on things like Google Ads and social media and staff, and we have 10 to 20 delegates on each call. And the busiest point in the day for me is the training on a full day course was always the lunch break, because the lunch break was when the people who had a question that perhaps they were too sharply to ask in front of walls or, you know, they have reflected on something while they were having their sandwiches. Actually, I didn't understand that bit. That will be when they all come over and want to talk to the trainer. So you know, if anyone listen to this is ever run public training, you're now as well as I do. You don't really get to eat lunch. That's your full on part of the day. You can relax when you get back into the training room. Well, that's something that the online courses, you know that it doesn't exist. But lunch break doesn't happen. And so what I didn't want people to buy a course on, then never do it or never finish it because, you know, I suppose you could argue. Either way, I've got their money. So why do I care? Well, actually, because my reason for doing this is I want to actually have people learn new skills and be able to do this stuff themselves, and so I actually want people to finish. But yes, I want the money, but I want to finish the course as well. And that's why if I turn into a membership, then I can offer that ongoing support, hand holding, and coaching to help them through the courses. That was one reason for it and the other reason was I felt if I sell it as a standalone course, it's kind of set in stone that this is what you get. Whereas I know that the nature of what I trained on your traditional marketing world is always changing, involving and new things are coming along. So I wanted to be able to say, Well, this is This is the training you get as a bare minimum, but I'll be adding new stuff as time goes on as new things happen and I learn new things and new things come out. Whatever. Because that only works if people are gonna membership model club, just giving people new content for free or time. Yeah, that were reasons.

And to share with the listeners the sort of structure of your overall programme. So when someone signs up, what do they get? What are the various component parts? Yeah, so is aimed at mortgage brokers and financial advisors who want to generate more enquiries, more leads from their own websites basically. So, when someone first joins the programme, they get what I call a road mapping call with me where it's a half hour call to work out. You know where they're at the moment. That's the other thing. People joined the programme. You know, some have done no on my marketing. Some have done a fair bit. And that's why again, with the membership, you can flex it around what fits each individual. So I helped him work out, whether at the moment, what their priority should be. And then they've got access to a whole library of online courses covering all the different things on the road. Mapping core allows me to recommend to them you should start with this course or that course, because I don't expect people to work through from course number one to course number 20 whatever necessary in that order, it might be. But I talked to one person, and it's clear that they don't have a good value proposition on their website. So I would say things like going to do the course on value propositions. Or maybe, you know, they've got a great website, but they're trying to run some Google Ads also right, going to start with this course. I'm glad so I can point people in different directions. They got that whole live your courses. But the most important thing is that they get us apart. The programme is once a fortnight. They get a group coaching call on line with me and the other brokers, and the idea of that is, each time, their hour long call. And each time I have a sort of start to topic. But I talk about for 20-25 minutes about live training. So, like the one we did a week or so ago, I was talking about how to use email marketing. A couple weeks before that, we were talking about how to write a better copy for your website, and then the second half are the People asking questions either on what I've just spoken about or whatever they're working on that moment. So, you know, we had someone recall last time who had been setting up some Google Ads campaigns wasn't getting as much traffic from it as I thought they should do, and I looked at it, live on air with them and said, Right, if you change this and this and this gives you all the others are learning from that as well, and that's what I think sets it apart from just paying £1000 from online course, and there's a community is, well online community who can ask questions, get support and answers from me and other brokers and everything.

Yeah, good structure and obviously that's a similar structure to my coaching programme, the self running agency. I think people buy courses and people buy books with great intention of reading them all, completing the course. And then life gets in the way and they never do. And there's this whole group of kind of course collectors that probably you and I have both been guilty of. And I know lots of listeners will relate to that. And so whatever we can do to encourage people to actually, you know, follow the content, and implement the content, and participate in the forums and the group cause and so on the better.Because at the end of the day, this is about, you know, like you save people, making a difference in their business route, content you that you offer. The way I do it is, if you've got those fortnightly coaching calls, if all you do as the bare minimum is come to those at least means once a fortnight. You're spending an hour working on your business and working on your marketing. But, you know, so having much life gets in the way, you've got that kind of lock in the diary and often you only have to do one  thing. We did a coaching called a couple months ago about the importance of social proof and online reviews. One of the guys on the call. One idea that I've given I actually went away, implemented it and got an extra 80 old reviews on his Google reviews within 24 hours, you know? So where if he hadn't come to that call, he could have done that at any time, and the idea I gave wasn't rocket science, but if he hadn't come to that call, he'd never have never gotten around to doing that.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And of course, you know, we do this like you say. We want to make money, but we do what we want to make a difference. And we know that we can help people. You know that for me, the catalyst of creating my courses self running agency implementation group was because I was having so many of the same conversations over and over again with my private coaching clients that I thought, Is there a way we can expedite this? And we can actually save some time on our private calls by me saying that I should go watch module three lesson for, because that you can dig into that in your own time at your own pace.

There's lots of associative downloads, so that was my catalyst and I call my group and implementation group because it is all about doing. It's not just about watching that. I don't want people to watch these programmes, Mehta said. Because a lot of people do watch courses. For what Mehta said, they have great intentions of implementing what they've learned and then they don't implement it. So I'm much more like watch a 10 minute less and get stopped, go implement it, and then we go on to the next thing. So tell me so you've launched this, so I go on, you know that that's not unique to be online world.I get back to the days when I vanished, additional training company. We found something that people would come on a cause, and they would leave with all good intentions. But they would have what we call F.T.I,I failure to implement on one of the things actually there to try to address that was I would be doing it with a Google Ads course and saying like, you come on, if you come on my full day good glance training calls. If you want, you can upgrade and come back for a half day implementation workshop a few days later, a week and that people found that really useful because they turned up to our offices with the laptop and I spent half an hour putting into practise what we learn. You did two things that made them got that time blocked out to do. If it also crucially, I and the other trainers were on hand, so if they got stuff we needed reminding something you could do it. And that's kind of what I'm finding recreate here really in the online world.

Yeah, that's great. I think you know anything we can do to encourage people to take action not just learn is really good. So now I think you've been running this programme for about what, six months now. So tell us how it's going. Yes, we launched beginning of November and it's going really want the numbers of the numbers, members growing months by months with no as yet done huge amounts of marketing around. I'm just starting have a bit more because I pushed to get more people on board, but primarily the people who've joined so far being people who were already aware of and when I do, we're already on my emailing list, comes out my free Facebook lives and stuff like that. And yet the people have said Yes, we you know, we'd like more of this basically So they're the ones who've joined right. And what would you say by reflecting back on the last six months? What would you say the hardest part of putting this kind of programme together, launching it and then marketing is? Funny enough, I don't think creating the content is the hardest part, even though that 40 what most people you have people listen to this thinking of doing this. I bet the thing was putting them off is thinking, Oh, my God, I've got a whole lot online courses. I can't possibly do that. I don't have the skills at the time. I don't have whatever. Um, I don't think that is the hardest part again. Another beauty of the membership, you don't have to launch with everything completely finished if you've got your core offering of course is there, and again if it's a membership like mine. But it's not all about the courses. It's more about the fortnightly coaching. Then you don't need to have this huge finished product before you launch. So I think that's one of the other is the thing I thought would be the biggest challenge for the biggest hurdle that she wasn't. I would say that the hardest thing is probably, you know, it's getting people to engage, getting themselves, joining the community, and come to the things because I know that those who do turn up to the coaching, I love it and get great value for it. But as we always think, there's always some who you know, unable to make it or don't turn up and you know, that's the hardest thing is you could take a horse to water. And I know from completing preach owners they have similar problems. 

So yeah, I completely agree. I mean, it always makes me laugh that the hardest thing the way I run my programme is like people have to submit the questions in advance of our group calls, and it's sometimes like getting blood out, always get the questions and they always come in at the last minute. But sometimes they're literally coming in and nine o'clock when the cause of 10, even though I stopped sort reminding everybody the week before, I think a really good bit of advice that you just shared there is that you don't need to have everything ready. In fact, if you're launching a programme yourself, you need to create a minimum viable offer, which is something that you can start selling and is the bare bones of your programme. Because the input you get from your members is really gonna help you shape what the future of it is and what new content you need to create. So like you said, a lot of people will be thinking I've gotta create this massive compendium of 80 said of will. This content is gonna take me months and months and months and therefore they never get going. But the truth of it is you don't need to have everything ready. And actually, you know my programme isn't a membership programme. It's sort of like a nine month programme. And, I still imagine content and I've been running my programme for a year and a half now and are still adding new content as I feel it's relevant. I think another piece of advice I would give is that no one is going to judge how good your programme is by the quantity of content. You don't need content about everything. You just need to have good quality content. 

Talk to us a little bit about the tech because I think the other thing that puts a lot of people off is all of the component parts that they need to put in place to make this work. So tell us a little bit about the tech that you're using and what you explored. You know, I think that can be because there's somebody from choices of tech that I think part of the problem can be is not even getting your head around how to use it. It's that potential overwhelm off. There's just too much, too much choice. The system that I'm using is probably not the most straightforward, to be honest, because I'm one of those people who likes to kind of take the best bit of software for this job and combine it with the best bit of software for this job. I liken it. To back, back in the days when, when before MPs reason, people listen to music and proper for a high five. But there were some people who would like to go out and just buy the Amstrad all in one system because it was simply plug in that worked on. Then there were others like me who would like to go out by, you know, the Marantz CD player in the name and per normative and then connected altogether and similar with software. So my set up is not the most simple, but it works for me, so I use a system called Thrive Apprentice, because part of the Thrive suite of products that my whole website is built on. So Thrive Apprentice, is their module for creating online courses. All my courses created on that I I use Vimeo for my video hosting. So if I want to create a cause, basically I create the PowerPoint slide deck to go with it like you would for a real world training course, and I go through that screen recording it. I use a philosophical Screencast-O-Matic for doing the screen recording. She's really great. It's a low costing. It cost me. I don't know, something like £70 a year, I think if I had to guess. But it is not a significant amount of money, and that does all the screen recording it's got video editor built into afterwards. After, if you could take the recording you've done you can tap and tail it, you can edit out the arms and the ours. If you've, I screwed up a bit, and you could recall innovation over the bit that you've messed up. It's dead easy to use. It's not got tonnes of video editing features, but that's nice, because then it's not confusing. It's got all the ones you need for doing a course creation. I then under that video, and then I could create my lesson in. So I've apprentice and saying, Pull this video in.I can put the lesson notes in there. So that's what I used to creating that kind of online content. My group coaching calls, no fancy tech involved there. It's a paid Zoom account. I set up the Zoom meeting and the link out on the agenda is people beforehand and may join the call, and what I do with all of those coaching calls is because they themselves are, you know, whenever growing library of useful stuff. So I record them all via Zooms record function, and I just turned those into a video but available to the members afterward, and for my community I use platform called Mighty Networks, which is kind of like is basically where you can create your own private version of Facebook really. And yes, I use that to host the community. So that's sort of how I did with all different components, better on the other. The other main component is to actually sell the membership and take people's monthly payments. I use Strivve Card and my plug in forward press that runs the member database is called WishList Member. That's what it's called. So I'm using different bits of everything I know. I know, the other extreme. But I know you use Kartra, which basically has almost components all in one package.

So if people like fiddling with the tech, you know, then you could do what I have done. If you just want an off the shelf, thinks I'm in a car trouble. I've heard people speak highly of MemberMouse as another thing, but kind does the whole lot. Um, But one of the one of the things I did, you know early on, was quite a reading member of membership systems and then I think that's it's important to get that right, migrating for one membership system for another is quite a pain. So I would definitely get that right. But with the other stuff, you know, if I suddenly decided I didn't like video anymore or I wanted to put my courses are different thing. It wouldn't be that difficult to move the videos from one platform to another or something like that. But moving all your members off one check out system one member into another. That's a bit more of a headache. So put the time and effort into getting that. 

Yeah, good advice and I will put links in the show notes to all of the tools that David just mentioned. In case you want to look at them, and as David said, you know, I think we both went through a fairly thorough assessment. In fact, prior to me moving to Kartra, I used to host some in the individual training courses on Teachable, which is a specific of course platforms. That's a really good platform for taking payments and delivering the content. But it didn't do enough from membership perspective, I guess. So. I decided to move to Kartra and as David said, cultures and all in one platform. So I host my videos. There are hosts of my course programmes there. I will take all the payments there. I have more female marketing's hosted in one platform. The advantage of that is it integrates really well and it's more straightforward. The disadvantage is it's not as flexible, so the way what David ,so talk about was like picking best of breed tools and then collecting together on what I do is making the connection piece really easy, but perhaps compromising in some aspects. Although place things like Kartra getting better all the time.

And as you said, there's other tools, like MemberMouse and Kajabi is another well known to all. So what advice would you give to somebody else if they were thinking about their listening to this and they're listening because they thought about how can I stop selling one toe, one work? How can I take what I know and put it online? What advice would you give them? 

There were two things I would say. One you've touched on already is go with the minimum viable products that don't don't feel you've got to spend six months or a year creating something huge before you launch, because the big risk if you do that, if you might create something that nobody wants and then you've wasted a year of your life, so decide what your minimum viable product is for launch, and commit to launching when you have that level of product that level of membership available. And the second thing I would say it's really important is create a waiting list and this is something that I did when I launched mine. If I were going back in time, I would maybe spend longer launching the waiting list. But I'm impatient, so I didn't but the beauty how you're waiting it is so wonderful about here. If you start telling people you know, people on your existing mailing list PPL existing clients contacts, prospect whatever your database of contact is, you start telling them this is what I'm visible I'm working on, this is coming. Are you interested? You want to join the weight of this? And I I did that. It's totally an obligation I have said to people for a number of occasions I'm creating this programme. This is the outline of what it's gonna look like, what the components and if you're interested in being one of the first to know when it launches, you know, and getting in a special founder, members price and all that kind of thing. Then just click here. And that added on the waiting list on that meant that at the time when I actually launched, I forget how many I had on the waiting list. But it wasn't a vast number was up 50 to 100 people. Maybe it meant I had that call of people who basically already committed. Then you did it by new rough. It was gonna be in the programme. May knew what it was gonna cost them. And so I said anything that the same, right? It's launching on this date, and that was like a week beforehand. So you're building up the anticipation and when I actually opened the doors that was right. This is it. I, you know, got me my 1st 10 sign ups, like within the first hour. And beyond, that is what you know. It's good from the commercial point of view, but it gets some money coming in for the membership straightaway. But more important in that it immediately validates that you've done something good because you've told you what it is you're gonna be selling. Okay? Not part of the money yet, but they've said we're on the weight of this. We will do as soon as you launch it, and then a decent percentage of those actually do. Do it when the time comes. You think? Yes, I have got something here, which is why I've got a viable product and that gives you the impetus of inside right now. Interface of how to do. How to grow membership, how will get more people into it. You know, whatever. I think it's really important that we don't want is a membership where you've got two members. But if you're doing things like group coaching calls or whatever because no, it doesn't hurt that much energy does it. If actually it's only hit you and two people. 

Yeah, I'm really good advice that I think the thing I would say to anybody that's thinking about doing this is do your research and do your validation and the only way you really validate that programme is by someone buying it because someone might tell you that they're interested. But telling you they're interested in parting with their cash are two different things. So, as part of your research and your validation, you need to pre-sell your programme using a minimum viable offer. And at that stage, you probably don't have any content created, you just mapped out what it will look like. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to guide that I've created on validation and research to help people go through those steps because, you know I've launched at least seven programmes in the past without doing this, and they've all been failing to one degree or another. So it was only after literally seven courses here over the last probably 6-7 years that I realised I needed to do this validation properly before I launch. Of course, there's a big difference between you thinking you know what your audience wants and your audience actually wanting something, so I think that's really good advice. 

So, I think something else to say is that, that validation idea isn't unique to just memberships. So if you were doing the more traditional launching of one online calls, you can still do that validation and at minimum viable product. So if you say you were doing, you know, of course, that was ultimately going to have 30 lessons in it. You could launch it and start selling it when you've created, say, the first 5 or 10 lessons. And you decide to most people, you know, the other lessons will be delivered over the next two months or something. Because again, that means you can actually, you know, test out the actual idea about getting some people onboard and if you know, if you've created your first 10 lessons and you're starting to flag a bit and think it always is hard work for nothing motivates you like having a load of people who've paid for the other 20 lessons and who are waiting to receive them. So don't don't think about those things as just applying for membership to be transferred to ordinary one of the courses as well. 

Yeah, for sure. And like you say, there's nothing like putting something in life to motivate you to get stuff done. Is there anything you would do differently if you were going to start again? Would you do anything differently that you've done so far? I think the thing I said about making the waiting list period a bit longer. Probably would really do that differently next time, and I suppose another thing I would do would do differently by the one thing that might I suppose I did try and create. This is a one off course and then transitioned into a membership. So, knowing what I know now, I would have done it as a membership from day one on. That would automatically have made the waiting list period longer because the waiting list would have been building up while I was creating Well, all the courses and scratch. Whereas by the time I did my waiting yes, I already got a lot of the stuff I needed ready to launch. So, yeah, I think extending that phase would be something I would do differently. But other than that, no, I think that that's the main thing, that's the beauty remembers you could. You could tweak it and change it as you go through. You know, it's something that you've got members saying, Oh, be really nice. If the programme included this or, you know, this hasn't happened to me But if people said, Oh, we'd rather only have a coaching called once a month once a fortnight or you can make those changes as you go. So I don't think you have to have everything set in stone like from day one.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Let me ask you a massive question and see if you can answer in one minute. Just I’m concious of time. One blast. And maybe this is a separate poor castle together. But one aspect that we haven't discussed is pricing. Like, how on earth do you work out? How much to charge, whether it be a one off fee, several payment fee like I have in my programme or monthly recurring membership fee? How did he start figuring out the pricing? 

I've no idea. This's a short answer.It's a a massive, massive question. And, I've read so many different theories on pricing and what you should do, it shouldn't do with it. The route I've gone for with it is to try and keep it as something where it's a low monthly amount because: a) I don't want people to be thinking too hard about whether to join in the first place, or b) whether to keep their membership going. I don't want price to be a barrier to them, to them coming on board. What I would say is, don't get obsessed with what each individual person is paying. Because if I looked at you know what someone on my membership gets for the monthly membership they pay, I'm setting myself way too cheap. What I do instead is look at what is my total revenue from the membership on DH there? Actually, we had that work. So you know, when I look at the time it takes me to go and do to group coaching calls per month, for example, I think, Yeah, that's actually I'm content with that as an hourly rate or whatever, you know, whatever you want to call it. So I would say, price it such that people don't have to think too hard about joining and don't have to think too hard about staying. Think about the value that they're getting for it. But the problem with that is you have memberships cover a huge range of things. Some people run memberships and online courses where what you're teaching someone is somebody with their hobby, you know? So maybe you've got a membership about how to play the guitar better. Well, that's mostly only gonna be their hobby. Will never get a return on that investment. Other than the pleasure I get from playing the guitar better with something like my membership, I can price it at the higher end because if you're a mortgage broker joining this, if it gets you just one extra client per month from what you learn from this, you know that's put another £1000 a month on your on your bottom line. So I think that's what you think. You're pricing thing. What's the actual value to the kind of people are joining this? How much could it change their business or change their life and therefore, what will be willing to pay for it? But I would rather than you have a lot of people paying a low amount of money than have you know, 10 people paying me £500 a month because I want that, I think. I guess I grew that. 

And of course, one of the ways you can and get some sense of pricing for whatever your programme is going to be in whatever topic it's gonna be for whatever market is, just to do some research and find out what other people are charging. That's a good starting point. I also think in the early days, I know both you and I did this is that you have assault founders rate and you almost use that as a way to get people through the door early because you tell them the price is going up. And, what you need to do is start a low rate and then increase the price until you reach a point where you've hit that soft, sweet spot, which is the right fee for you and the right fee for your market as well. So, like so it was probably an unfair question to ask you right at the end, but I just wanted to get that one in. 

So as you know, the last question, I ask all my guests, and I deliberately asked David not to go back and listen to episode 6 to see what he said before but I'll do that after this. If you could go back in time and give your younger self a piece of advice, what would it be? Well, I haven't been back and checked, but there are actually two bits of advice because I think since you asked me that in episode 6, I think I got asked on someone else's podcast and gave a different answer. So I'm going to give both okay. Advice I would give to my younger business self are niche your business because I didn't do that until about six years ago, and I wish I'd done it sooner. And the second piece of advice would be start building your email list because again, that's something that I only really started focusing heavily on a few years ago. If I'd started doing that 10-20 years ago, I'd have an even bigger at me. My email list is a massive asset, and, like I said, it was where the majority of my members have come from for my membership programme. Imagine if I started building that 15 years ago, it would have been even bigger and better. So start building a list, too. 

Yeah, two great piece of advice and, you know, my listeners will know that I bang on the drum about both of those. And sometimes it's really hard to get people to figure out that you're building your email list is gonna be one of your most valuable assets, and it'll be one of the most valuable asset. So if you want to sell your agency and it's certainly going to be the sort of pool that you swim in and fishing and if you can make that pool's biggest possible. And of course, as we all know, nitching your agency means high price is easy if your clients to find you and easier to look different to your competitors. So good piece of advice. I will go back and check out what you said on episode 6 to see if it's the same works on a different. But I'm not sure if I don't think we've ever had either of those two piece of it as advice before.

That's always great, David. It's people listening to this, and they want to find out more about you and particularly check out your programme, where would they go? If you go to the website, which is ThePPCMachine.co.uk. Always stuff said if they specifically about the programme. It's ThePPCmachine.co.uk/PPP  because the programme is called the Predictable Part Mind Programme (PPP). And obviously they want to connect me, I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter was updated miles, you know, all the usual places. Yes. 

So we are scribing this down, we will add all those links into the show notes, so people can check out what we've been talking about today. See what yourselves page your programme looks like get some other ideas but wanted to thank you today for joining us David, this has been a topic that I haven't talked about before. But it's interesting. And I think like you said, the catalyst has been the pandemic that more people are starting to think about taking their agency work and moving it online in some form. But they often don't know where to start. I feel such a huge task. So I hope that the advice you shared with people today will help them make that journey a little bit more pain free for them. Hopefully, thank you very much. for has been a pleasure chatting to you as always. And, yeah, I hope it's giving people some useful advice. We'll see you again soon. Bye!

    Rob Da Costa

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